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BMFA Nationals - Barkston Heath
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http://www.gbrcaa.org/smf/index.php?topic=2054.0
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I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Topic: I'd like an alligator sandwich... (Read 890 times)
Adrian Mansell
GBRCAA Member
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I'd like an alligator sandwich...
«
on:
05, April 2010, 08:44:29 PM »
...and make it snappy!
I'm sure it's been covered lots before and caused many a pantomime "Oh no it isn't" "Oh yes it is" session, so I don't want to reopen the "what is a snap?" debate. Nonetheless, there seems to be plenty of room for interpretation in the criteria, so I have uploaded a video of 4 different snaps from 3 pilots to the following location:
http://www.spoonwibble.com/
(then click on Alligator Sandwich).
I'd be interested to know which of the four a judge would think best presents the "snap genre" and why. Then I'd better go learn to fly one :-)
A
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Bill Michie
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #1 on:
05, April 2010, 08:52:30 PM »
I believe the purest one to be the third one (from high left to low right against cloudy sky) as it clearly shows the attitude break AND acceleration of roll into the snap, yet still maintains the line by great skill............. The last one is verging on a barrelly snap, rather wishy-washy. The others are so fast as to hide the stall-break it's very hard to judge according to the criteria.
My tuppence worth, as a flier and occasional "fill-in" judge!
Bill
And NOW for the experts...........
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Malcolm Balfour
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #2 on:
05, April 2010, 09:34:55 PM »
I think all except the last snap were fine.
The last snap seemed more like a barrel roll
Malc
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Alan Simmonds
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #3 on:
05, April 2010, 11:37:48 PM »
Other than a slight over-rotation (- 1 point), No. 3 looks the best but is that because the camera is tracking it more smoothly?
Sorry guys, No. 4 didn't look like a barrel roll to me... I didn't see a helical flightpath but there's no denying it broke the line. And, I wouldn't penalise a snap for not achieving 3000rpm.
On the other hand, I would be looking really really hard to spot the break on a very fast snap like 1 and 2.
It's hard to be completely objective due to the jerky camera action and I certainly wouldn't say which is best.
Regards
Alan
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Malcolm Balfour
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #4 on:
06, April 2010, 12:39:35 AM »
in the F.A.I judging guide it says that a snap should have a "rapid" rotation. .
The last snap is border line
BTW is that Mr Christopher flying?
Malcolm
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Adrian Mansell
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #5 on:
06, April 2010, 10:48:03 AM »
#1 = CPLR at last year's worlds
#2 & #4 = Derk Van Der Vecht
#3 = Sebastiano Silvestri, circa 2007 I think
Your responses all make sense to me and really help clarify what judges look for without saying it has to be exactly X. For me 1 & 2 are great demonstrations of the model's capability but it's hard to see the components of a snap. 3 has all the essentials of a snap, the break, the accelerating autorotation, the conical tail,the loss of energy and the desire to keep rotating. I actually quite like #4 but agree it has been toned right down to make it easier to fly.
Thanks muchly.
A
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Richard Christopher
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #6 on:
06, April 2010, 12:32:37 PM »
Hi Malc,
As Adrian has listed - not my Integral! I think my "snap style" is now somewhere between styles "1" and "3". Personally don't like 4, Silvestri certainly not performing snaps like these anymore (he has a very deliberate break at the start of his snaps).
Regards,
Rich C
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Keith Jackson
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #7 on:
07, April 2010, 07:35:01 AM »
I think 1-3 are certainly all good snaps, the 4th one is borderline and not to my preference. For what its worth #1 is the best snap of the three.
Once you accept that a manoeuvre is a snap (and as shown snaps can vary), I think there is as much importance on the line (straight), positioning of the snap within the line and the heading being maintained.
Keith
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Chris Currie
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
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Reply #8 on:
07, April 2010, 05:27:36 PM »
I am in agreement with most in that I like 1, 2 and 3. It is hard to tell with 4, but going by the video footage I would mark a zero as it does not appear to be in a stalled attitude, that's the way my eyes see it.
It's interesting this came up as today I received an email from IMAC UK regarding snaps. There has been some questions raised and clarification came from Chief IMAC judge(USA) Wayne Matthews, I have copied it below aswell as a copy from the F.A.I. judging guide to show comparisons. Especially handy with many F3A competitors flying IMAC these days.
F.A.I Judging guide.
SNAP-ROLLS
Definition: A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a
stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack.
Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant
flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned. Snap rolls are most often components of more complex
manoeuvres.
At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight
path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled condition
throughout the manoeuvre. If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the
manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).
zeroed
. Similarly, axial rolls disguised as
snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).
zeroed
.
Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. This attitude is entirely at
the competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the
manoeuvre is severely downgraded, using the 1 point/15 degree rule. During the unknown manoeuvre
schedules, the attitude (positive or negative) is at the competitor’s discretion.
I.M.A.C. judging guide
Pilots / Judges Corner - The Snap
The first issue you must decide when judging snaps is that he did or did not do the type of snap called for by the Aresti. Snaps can be positive (pitch to the canopy) or negative (pitch to the wheels). If he does the wrong type, he gets a zero for the maneuver - the whole maneuver. If he gets this part right, you go on to judge the rest of the maneuver.
“Is it a snap” is the second decision you, as a judge, must wrestle with. This is a binary choice. There is no gray area. You must decide if he did or did not snap. If the answer is no, you zero the maneuver - the whole maneuver. If the answer is yes, then you proceed to judge the applicable downgrades for the snap and apply them to the maneuver.
So lets deal with “Is it a snap”. To be a snap there must be a stall and there must be autorotation. That is what the F&JG tells us. The stall is a high speed stall induced by the pilot with a rapid pitch movement that increases the angle of attack sufficiently to stall a wing. The lift on the wing that is still flying will force rapid rotation about the roll axis and also, combined with rudder deflection, will produce a yaw in the direction of the roll. So everything is moving here. A judgeable snap will have movement on all three axis - pitch, roll and yaw.
When must the pilot get these three motions all moving? Unlike the spin where the stall and wing drop are supposed to occur simultaneously, the snap may have the pitch (stall) and the autorotation begin simultaneously OR sequentially in that order (pitch then autorotation). No downgrade applies if he starts the pitch and autorotation together. No downgrade applies if he pitches and then immediately starts autorotating. If, however, he initiates the rotation first without a pitch you ding him .5 for each 5 degrees he rotates before he shows you the pitch. If he gets to 90 degrees without a pitch, you zero the maneuver. Note that many pilots intentionally and legitimately delay the start of autorotation momentarily to be sure to clearly show the pitch/stall before the start of autorotation in order to minimize the risk of getting a zero.
So, how do you, the judge, know that all this is happening as it should? Its hard since it all happens so quickly but you can clearly identify the pitch that starts it all. Without a pitch there will be no stall. No stall equals no snap and results in a zero. Just don’t ding the guy if the autorotation starts at the same time as the pitch/stall. At the point of the break (stall) into the snap you have a couple of indicators that you can use to make the “Is it a snap” decision. If he did snap:
- There will be displacement of the plane’s pitch axis relative to the entry line, i.e., entering the snap the plane should not be on the same exact line as it was prior to the snap. If he stalled, he went either to the canopy or the wheels and he shouldn’t be on the identical line.
- There will be yaw displacement. The rudder deflection and stall of the wing will yaw the plane in the direction of rotation. So on entering the snap the plane will be pointed at some angle (it may be small) to the line he was on before the snap.
Note that these are only indicators. They are not of themselves judging criteria.
But, to look at it another way, if he remains on exactly the same line during his snap he did an aileron roll. If he spirals around his entry line, he is doing a barrel roll. Neither case qualifies as a judge-able snap and each should be zero’d.
Before we talk about downgrades for judge-able snaps, lets consider what the pilot must do after the snap. What he must do is immediately get the plane back on the required flight path in the appropriate attitude. So, given the discussion above, since he has pitched and yawed from his original track, he will likely have to make a pitch and a yaw correction to resume the correct flight path. If the snap is being done on a line, the post snap line should be parallel to the pre-snap line but not identical to it since it will be displaced by some distance from the pre-snap line. This may be a very small distance. If the snap is being done on an arc, he may or may not need to realign in order to continue along the radius he is flying. The critical point is that you should not downgrade the guy for realignment movements done immediately after the snap. These movements may not be perceptible but if they are he is allowed to “straighten” the plane without downgrade. He must do this immediately after completion of the snap. If the realignment is necessary and he delays it he will be showing you a misaligned line or arc that is inconsistent with the Aresti and you should downgrade that line or arc.
OK - he did a snap, it was the correct type of snap and you did not zero it. What are the downgrades that may apply. For the snap element itself, the only downgrade is under or over rotation. Once autorotation is initiated in the snap the pilot must maintain autorotation to exactly the stopping point called for by the Aresti. If he stops early, you downgrade .5 for every 5 degrees that he under rotated. Same if he over rotates. Note that it is common to see a pilot come out of autorotation early and aileron to the finish - and some pilots do it very skillfully. This gets a downgrade and is treated as the under rotation just covered, i.e., you ding him .5 for 5 for however much he is aileroning to the finish. The indicator that you look for to identify that this is happening is a change in the rate of rotation. Rotation rate is not in itself a judging criteria within snaps, but the rate of rotation within an autorotation will be pretty constant and any change will be gradual as the plane loses energy in the snap. So, a perceptible and perhaps abrupt change of roll rate toward the end of the snap is a clue that the pilot is not autorotating to the finish but, rather, is completing his snap with ailerons. It can be a tough call.
Beyond the snap element itself you must, in judging a snap, be alert to the following:
- Line centering:
If the snap is done on a line, it must be centered on the line. If it is not the following downgrade applies based on the two line segments either side of the snap:
- line segments vary but the difference is less that 2 to 1 - deduct 1 pt
- line segments differ by 2 to 1 but less than 3 to 1 - deduct 2pt
- line segments differ by 3 to 1 or more - deduct 3 pt max
- omits one line segment - deduct 4 pt
- omits both line segments - deduct 2 pt
- Exit of a part loop:
If the snap is done when exiting a part loop such as at the exit of an Immelman it must be done exactly at the completion of the part loop. If not the following downgrades apply:
- If done early before the completion of the part loop ding him .5 for each 5 degrees that he is early
- If done late and he shows you a line after completion of the part loop and before the snap, it is a t least a two point deduction - more if the line is extended. The F&JG doesn’t help us with applying a deduction of more than two points. Also, at some point the line can get so long that the maneuver should be zero’d. Again the F&JG doesn’t help us here. It is up to you to set some personal standard for these cases. Just be consistent.
- Entry to a part loop:
If the snap is done when entering a part loop such as at the beginning of an Split S, the arc of the part loop must begin immediately after completion of the snap.
- If he shows you a line after the snap and before starting the arc, it is again the same “at least two points” deduction just discussed above. Again, you have to personally come up with a scheme for handling the “more if extended”.
- If he is late and starts the arc (establishes a radius...) and then does the snap we again are left on our own. If he only impinges a little on the arc and does the snap I would ding him .5 for 5 for being late. If he is very noticeably late I would zero the maneuver. What is a “little” and what is “noticeably late” again requires that you set a personal standard that you can apply consistently.
- Arc centering:
If the snap is done on an arc (loop or part loop) it must be centered on that arc. If it is not centered the following downgrade applies:
- .5 for each 5 degrees that he misses the center
- Follow the arc:
If the snap is being done on an arc (loop or part loop) it must follow the radius of that arc during the time that it is being executed. The alternative is to flatten out the radius and do the snap on a line. In general, adding a line where you shouldn’t have one is a 2 pt deduction. So, if he does not follow the arc during the snap and instead does it on a line, or shows you well defined lines before and/or after the snap, the following downgrades apply:
- 2 pt if he flattens out and does the snap on a line
- 2 pt per line if he shows you a defined line (no radius) before the snap is initiated or after the snap is completed. What is the length that makes it a “defined line” is up to you.
Note that the snap may be done as part of a combination of optional elements. For example: a line that has a snap followed by an opposite half roll. If so, then the downgrades discussed above (centering, follow the arc, etc...) always apply to the total combination. The exception to this is the spin. The spin is an optional element which ends with a down line. Another optional element such as a snap after the spin may be required on that down line and if so there is no centering requirement imposed upon it.
So that is pretty much it. The difficulty in judging the snap lies with the speed of the maneuver and how quickly it all happens. You really have to be paying attention and anticipating the snap so you are concentrating on what the pilot actually shows you. As with all judging it is critical to know the sequence to avoid looking away from the plane - and, as always, the pilot gets the benefit of the doubt.
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Mike Wood
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Re: I'd like an alligator sandwich...
«
Reply #9 on:
07, April 2010, 08:23:11 PM »
Nice video collection!
FAI
Quote
...At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight
path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled condition
throughout the manoeuvre....
IMAC
Quote
...No downgrade applies if he starts the pitch and autorotation together...
These two rules don't appear to be compatible.
Yet to me it seems that the best FAI snaps are following the IMAC interpretation.
Mike
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